WEBVTT
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.479
A lot of people want to sell you this kind of idea.
00:00:02.479 --> 00:00:18.000
If you use my plugin, my lot, whatsoever, then you will get these A-level looks, but there are sometimes super fancy VFX work, or a lot of times doing a lot of maths and stuff like that, and you can't automatically do that just because you have a plugin.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.879
The same is true if it's not shot.
00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:30.239
Well, that's another part of the equation, and I'm not even speaking about editorial or onset work and art direction whatsoever and lens choices and so on.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:41.359
So I think that's also something that maybe is frustrating with all the Instagram ads and stuff like that popping up that everybody wants to sell you a quotes Hollywood look.
00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:44.079
The Hollywood look is not just a colorist.
00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:50.880
Welcome to Color and Coffee, a podcast that's focused on the craft of color and the artist behind it.
00:00:50.880 --> 00:01:01.200
I'm your host, Jason Bowdach, and each episode we'll sit down with some of the most talented artists in the industry and have a casual chat from one artist to another.
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:07.439
We'll share their stories, their insights, their tips, and maybe even a little gear talk.
00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:13.840
Whether you're a seasoned pro or just getting started, join us for some great color discussion.
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:18.959
Sit back, relax, you're listening to Color and Coffee.
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:23.040
Hello and welcome to another episode of Color and Coffee.
00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:27.519
I'm your host, Jason Bowdach, and today I have a really special guest for you.
00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:31.680
His name is Nico Fink, and he runs Demystify Color.
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:48.719
It's a really great site that runs training, they do tutorials, they do DCTLs, they have resources for matching film, and most importantly, it is one of my favorite sites if you want to up your game on everything color grading.
00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.359
Now, they also happen to be a sponsor of the show.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:56.159
Thank you so much, Nico, and we are going to be talking a bunch of different subjects today.
00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:04.959
From fatherhood and post to different film emulation plugins that have been released in the last year or so, and I am so excited for this chat today.
00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:06.159
I hope you guys are too.
00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:07.840
Thank you for joining us, Nico.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.560
Hey Jason, thanks so much for having me again.
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:12.159
It's truly a pleasure, my friend.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:17.120
It really has been a little while since you've been on the show, and so much has changed in our industry in such a short time.
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:18.240
Yeah, it's insane.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:23.120
I don't know when we talked last time for the podcast, I think it's one and a half years ago or so.
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:29.280
I think for me and also for you, especially, a lot of has changed because we're both parents now, too.
00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:30.560
And yeah.
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.520
Besides the industry is a different place.
00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:39.039
A child, we also got like 50 new film plugins, film emulation plugins.
00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:40.800
No joke, man.
00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:48.319
I mean, the the industry is a totally different place than it was last time I had you on the show, and honestly, both of our lives are totally, totally different.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:57.439
So I'm not really sure if it's just the way that we're seeing the world is a different place, but also we have to admit that the entire entertainment marketplace is totally different.
00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:07.599
So before we jump into some of the film emulation stuff, I just wanted to chat with you a little bit about what life is like working in post as a father, because I don't think this is talked about enough.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:17.360
What is life like with you, and what are some of the things that you've been dealing with in terms of running a business, running a training site as a new father?
00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:23.120
Because honestly, for me, I can admit it is one of the hardest things I have ever done.
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:24.240
No, definitely.
00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:25.919
It's it's the same for me.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:39.520
And I think the funniest thing about being a parent and having a newborn is I thought like going out partying before a gig and just sleeping for four hours is lack of sleep.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:49.039
But now when you're having a newborn, you really know what lack of sleep is, and I wish I had this four hours after a party to sleep before the client comes in.
00:03:49.039 --> 00:04:00.080
So I think the the lack of sleep and being focused and finding solutions quick, and especially when when grading is definitely one of the hardest parts now.
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:00.639
Yeah.
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.159
I so feel you on that.
00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:09.840
Honestly, I've had the similar struggle in the sense that it's it's been really difficult for me to figure out sort of re-triggering my brain.
00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:20.800
I too thought that I had a complete handle on it, considering that I used to stay up late and play video games and watch movies and immerse myself in the industry and look up new trends and stuff.
00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:25.519
And I figured I can just shift gears and now and just focus on my newborn.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.879
And it did not work out like that at all.
00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:39.360
My focus completely dove off a cliff, and I had to really retrain myself and start working much closer with my partner.
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:43.920
We did end up getting some child care a couple days a week, but obviously we don't have that at night.
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:49.360
My my kid still doesn't sleep through the night, and he's almost a year old, so we're we're getting through that.
00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:59.120
But it's such a new challenge, and it just reminds me that besides life, working in the film industry is constantly about learning new things.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:12.240
And for those of you that don't have a child out there, I think it's a lesson, and and and for those of that can't necessarily connect with this, that's a reminder to constantly keep on your toes and be prepared to learn new things.
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.000
Because I was so honestly, I can't explain.
00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:17.600
I was so confident.
00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:19.759
I was very afraid to become a father.
00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:23.680
I was one of those guys that was very, very nervous about it.
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:34.480
But I thought I would have a handle because everything else in life, I don't want to say came to me pretty easily, but I had a pretty good handle on being able to be tenacious and just power through things.
00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:39.360
And man, was this the one of the most difficult things that I have ever done?
00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:41.519
And I'm still going through, I have to admit.
00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:51.439
And so I am honestly like still to this day looking up tips and tricks and strategies that I can one do things more efficiently.
00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.360
I certainly learned how to nap quicker.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:06:02.399
I thought I did that, but uh, I really appreciate the time and my partner and being able to have great teamwork.
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:07.120
And so that to me is something that I I really am still getting a hand on.
00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.720
I I I don't want to sound like I have this all figured out after 11 months.
00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.839
I am honestly, I feel like I'm swimming my way through it without a life jacket.
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:17.199
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:18.800
I think you had a couple points.
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:27.920
Um, I I felt like the same way when I didn't have a kid and I was talking to parents and I couldn't relate at all, or thought, what the fuck would you doing?
00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:28.959
It what's so hard?
00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:29.759
I don't get it.
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:39.360
So probably there are a lot of people out there who still don't have a child and saying, Oh, Jason can't even do that, or Nico can't even do that, or what is going on with them?
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:45.199
But yeah, a lot of things you just realize when you're actually a father or a mother.
00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:49.199
And I think that's that's one of the crazy things that you just said.
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.040
Um, learning as you go, and you're figuring it out as you go.
00:06:53.040 --> 00:07:07.360
And maybe you have a plan beforehand, but it's still a human being, and he or she does whatever she wants to, and and if you have a plan, maybe it's the next day is completely different, and and your plan doesn't work at all.
00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:17.199
So that's definitely a good learning for me personally, and and also a good thing to have, but it's also very, very challenging, of course.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:40.800
And yeah, it's also hard or or tough to manage everything to get enough sleep, to get enough attention to the kid, get enough attention for my wife, for my job, for demystify color, and and yeah, that time flies, it's insane because I had also like a funny thing with Demystify because I didn't respond to an email for I think it was a bit over a day, so like 36 hours or something like that.
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:52.240
And uh for me it felt like it came in like minutes ago, but for other people it's it's like I didn't respond for a week, so yeah, it it's definitely shifting how you see things and and what's important.
00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.319
Yeah, I can totally relate.
00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:05.439
It's so funny that you mentioned the plan thing because I'm a planner, I like to plan and figure out my strategy when I'm gonna deal with things, and my kid just does not care.
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.279
It's so funny, and and it's just like, yeah, you know what?
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:10.560
I don't care what you planned.
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:13.759
We're doing it this way, and I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna do this.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.240
And oh, you wanted to do this at nine o'clock.
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:22.480
I don't care, I'm gonna wake up at six and keep you busy, and you want it 45 minutes before your call or before your grade.
00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.759
You want it just pretty no, that's not happening, dad.
00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:29.759
And it's just it's a shock to my system, man.
00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.680
It is so difficult for me.
00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:36.879
So that is something I'm still getting used to, and I'm still trying to figure out strategies.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:40.399
And I'll I mean, I'll put out a call out there for those fellow parents out there.
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:49.759
I mean, if you guys have strategies, I think Nico and I are definitely open to to tips and tricks for those of you that got a better handle on this because it is very difficult.
00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:55.039
And obviously, after I think Nico, you're a little further on than me, but I'm I'm 11 months in.
00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:56.799
Yeah, 40 months for me, yeah.
00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:04.320
So yeah, I'm and I'm at 11 months, and we're like I said, I'm I'm swimming without a life jacket and I'm I'm keeping my head above water.
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:18.399
But honestly, I've become so much more humble about it in the sense that I don't want to say I'm willing to take advice from everybody, but I'm willing to hear it out and I welcome it, and then I sort of filter it through my thing and be like, you know what, that's a great idea.
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:18.960
You know what?
00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:19.919
That's not for me.
00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:32.879
But I love hearing the way that other parents do it, and I've gotten some really incredible advice from people, uh, like life-changing advice that has both led to more sleep and kept me more sane and improved my relationship with my wife.
00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:38.399
All things that honestly I thought were gonna be not a big deal, but now are really huge things.
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:47.039
And the other thing that you you touched on, like I, like you, I think, respond to all the emails from my company because we're a small business over at Pixel Tools.
00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:50.960
I was really proud of being able to respond to my emails very, very quickly.
00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:55.919
I like very detailed emails, and it has become so hard to do that.
00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:02.799
And I think I have an email that like hasn't been responded to in 48 hours, and it's difficult, man.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:14.879
I feel guilty about not doing that, and I am doing my best to give myself grace and set an expectation to people that I am not available 24-7 anymore.
00:10:47.930 --> 00:10:49.210
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:10:49.210 --> 00:10:50.890
Um, it was also my case.
00:10:50.890 --> 00:11:01.850
I constantly checked my phone and tried to respond as much as I can and as quickly as I can, and I also wrote a lot of detailed emails, and now I'm just not able to do that anymore.
00:11:01.850 --> 00:11:18.730
Of course, I will always try to provide the best support whatsoever, or also to personal questions over Instagram or stuff like that, but at some point it's just not possible anymore that I can try to answer all and everything within minutes or hours.
00:11:18.730 --> 00:11:20.890
It just takes some time, and it's the same for me.
00:11:20.890 --> 00:11:30.970
I'm to I'm running all of this on my own, and yeah, I I have to balance things out, and I can't just do one thing all the time or do another thing all the time.
00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:40.330
I just have to smash everything into my calendar and and see what's more important, and that's definitely a challenge and definitely something that has changed.
00:11:40.330 --> 00:11:51.050
But I think it it's a part of life now, and maybe it will change in one or two years again, or maybe I have another kid and it's even even harder then.
00:11:51.050 --> 00:11:52.490
So let's see.
00:11:52.890 --> 00:11:54.650
It's in the plans for me too, man.
00:11:54.650 --> 00:12:12.490
And so one of the things, and and then we'll move on to film emulation and the plugins that have taken over the market, is like I I'm sure you have like I've decided, and me and my wife have decided to severely limit my kid's screen time until he gets screen time, and I respond on my phone a lot of the time.
00:12:12.490 --> 00:12:22.570
And so when I'm taking care of my child, it's so difficult for me to not just pull out my phone and respond to an email or respond to a chat.
00:12:22.570 --> 00:12:31.450
And it took something my wife said to me, which was Is responding to this email going to be life-changing for you or your business?
00:12:31.450 --> 00:12:36.810
And can it wait like an hour or 24 hours or a couple hours?
00:12:36.810 --> 00:12:40.730
And I have to admit, most of the time, it's yes, this can wait.
00:12:40.730 --> 00:12:42.730
This is not life-affecting.
00:12:42.730 --> 00:13:00.330
And so I'm trying to internalize that as much as possible because the way that I approached it was like this is a person that I want to provide the best customer service to, and I want to be there for them, and I wanted to make a good impression on them, just like I approached my color correction business.
00:13:00.330 --> 00:13:05.370
And that is just not possible right now, and the world is not gonna end.
00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:10.010
It's one of the things I picked up early in my career was this is television, not brain surgery.
00:13:10.010 --> 00:13:12.410
And so I'm trying to approach- You're not saving lies.
00:13:12.410 --> 00:13:14.810
Exactly.
00:13:14.810 --> 00:13:17.850
That is the type of approach that I'm trying to use.
00:13:17.850 --> 00:13:23.210
Now, obviously, there are certain emergencies, but that is not one of them most of the time.
00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:23.690
Yeah.
00:13:23.690 --> 00:13:32.570
Yeah, no, of course, if an email comes in and there's something going wrong with the DCTL and they are on a tight schedule, of course I get it.
00:13:32.570 --> 00:13:39.450
It's tough and it's stressful for everyone, and then I try to respond as fast as I can, even when I'm on vacation or whatsoever.
00:13:39.450 --> 00:13:54.730
But yeah, sometimes if it's in quotes like a more regular kind of question or request or whatsoever that's not super urgent, then of course it can wait for 48 hours or after my vacation or what whatsoever.
00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:55.210
Yeah.
00:13:55.450 --> 00:13:55.690
Yeah.
00:13:55.690 --> 00:13:57.610
I think that's I think that's really important.
00:13:57.610 --> 00:14:04.650
And as as I get older, something that I'm trying to internalize is somebody else's emergency is not my emergency.
00:14:04.650 --> 00:14:05.930
And I think that's really important.
00:14:05.930 --> 00:14:06.890
Really good, yeah.
00:14:06.890 --> 00:14:14.650
That I've seen a lot of people in our industry be very successful in life, yet have very little connection with their family.
00:14:14.650 --> 00:14:26.890
And that's not something that I want to have because for me, I obviously want to be successful in my career, but it's not important enough for me to disregard my family.
00:14:26.890 --> 00:14:37.690
And it it took me a number of months to obviously figure that out, and it's it's hard because I'm, I'll admit, addicted to my phone.
00:14:37.690 --> 00:14:41.050
And it's it's hard, man.
00:14:41.050 --> 00:14:41.690
It's hard.
00:14:41.690 --> 00:14:44.250
I'm actively working on it, but I am like a lot of people.
00:14:45.370 --> 00:14:50.330
Like a little button that like block all the apps from my phone when I'm with the child.
00:14:50.330 --> 00:14:57.530
So I can try then I try like two times to get on Gmail or whatsoever, and it doesn't work.
00:14:57.530 --> 00:15:04.090
And that's perfect for me because the third time I won't pick up the phone anymore, and it's better for me, it's better for the for the child.
00:15:04.090 --> 00:15:05.530
And we're on the same boat.
00:15:05.530 --> 00:15:10.890
I always try to limit the screen time or don't give him any screen time at all at the moment.
00:15:10.890 --> 00:15:21.290
So yeah, and I also try to limit my screen time because yeah, I realized it's also better for me, not just because I'm a parent now, but for me personally, for my mental health, for everything.
00:15:21.290 --> 00:15:26.490
Yeah, it's just insane with the smartphones how you're always connected to everything, kinda.
00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:28.090
Yeah, it's it's crazy.
00:15:28.090 --> 00:15:31.690
And as you said, you get really addicted um really fast.
00:15:32.410 --> 00:15:35.050
I mean, yeah, and that's one of the things that I'm trying.
00:15:35.050 --> 00:15:42.890
Obviously, I you and I as adults have that understanding, and it's one thing for us to say, like, I am addicted to my phone, I pick it up all the time.
00:15:42.890 --> 00:15:47.610
Sometimes I just go to social media for no apparent reason just to check for it.
00:15:47.610 --> 00:15:51.129
And it's we can actively say, like, oh, look, I'm addicted to it.
00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:51.690
Ha ha.
00:15:51.690 --> 00:15:59.770
But a child doesn't have that understanding, and so that's something that I really am trying to prevent as I work on my own bad habits.
00:15:59.770 --> 00:16:07.290
So moving on a little bit, because I'm sure a lot of people don't want this to be a podcast about our own addictions and our journey through fatherhood.
00:16:07.290 --> 00:16:12.490
Maybe we can do a Discord group for everyone who's on the same boat.
00:16:12.490 --> 00:16:16.170
Uh recovering phone addicts and new fathers.
00:16:16.410 --> 00:16:17.050
Yeah.
00:16:20.170 --> 00:16:22.730
That's a that's not a bad idea, actually.
00:16:22.730 --> 00:16:28.810
Um the industry, both of you and I have a pretty big interest in film emulation.
00:16:28.810 --> 00:16:36.410
Your site has a significant, significant resources for tutorials, DCTLs, and products on film emulation.
00:16:36.410 --> 00:16:43.610
I have a product called Film Emulsion on Pixel Tools for Film Emulation that we actually use a bunch of resources from your website.
00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:50.570
And besides that, there's a bunch of different plugins from Filmbox to Ari's new plugin to film convert dehancer.
00:16:50.570 --> 00:16:51.770
I could go on and on.
00:16:51.770 --> 00:16:58.410
And you reached out to me because you wanted to talk about how this market was getting crowded and some of your thoughts on that.
00:16:58.410 --> 00:17:00.970
And I thought that was really a great conversation.
00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:03.050
So I wanted to dive into that a little deeper.
00:17:03.050 --> 00:17:12.569
So let's talk about that, about how the film emulation market has gotten not only crowded, but it's now difficult to differentiate between some of these plugins.
00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:15.609
In 2025, it it was insane.
00:17:15.609 --> 00:17:30.410
I think we we had an explosion of of plugins on like OFX and DCTLs, and I kind of feel it's getting a bit frustrated, so to say, because they're all kinda in quotes trying to do the same thing.
00:17:30.410 --> 00:17:50.329
Of course, we all know they they perform differently and and everybody has their own style and they look a bit different, and so on, but I think the kind of idea is is the same that everybody sells it like with mine you can achieve this Hollywood film looks, in quotes, or or the secret sauce, or or whatsoever.
00:17:50.329 --> 00:18:17.529
That's one thing, and and also the other thing is what I find even more frustrating is that a lot of open source stuff or or even not open source stuff with DC tails got just get repackaged and and sold by a bunch of different people, and it's crazy when you see some DC tails popping up for one or two hundred bucks, and you know it's just open source stuff repackaged, or even I think it was even from your side.
00:18:17.529 --> 00:18:21.769
Um, you had a power grade up and they just repackage it and sold it.
00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:26.569
And I don't really get it why our kind of niche profession, of course.
00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:46.169
I know color grading is getting bigger every year and more accessible and so, but I think we are still niche, but anyhow it it turned into a kind of a million-dollar business selling DCTLs and plugins, and I think it's a bit of a weird thing that's happening at the moment, and I think nobody really talked about it yet publicly.
00:18:46.169 --> 00:18:51.210
And I thought it's a great topic to pick up and maybe have a conversation about it.
00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:56.649
Um even maybe I'm not making a lot of friends with some of my opinions, but yeah.
00:18:57.049 --> 00:19:05.129
Well, I think it's I thought it was really interesting, and that's why I wanted to invite you back on the show because I have been sitting here very intrigued by it.
00:19:05.129 --> 00:19:09.849
And obviously, you and I both have products in this market, so it's sort of funny.
00:19:09.849 --> 00:19:16.089
Somebody might be sitting there saying it's pretty funny with these two guys that make their own film emulation products complaining about the market.
00:19:16.089 --> 00:19:28.329
But it's interesting in the fact that there is both low-hanging and high-hanging fruit, and so I think it's worth differentiating, I think, what we're talking about specifically.
00:19:28.329 --> 00:19:31.129
So I'll mention the different levels of it.
00:19:31.129 --> 00:19:53.609
So I think on one level, you have products like Filmbox and Genesis that are on a very, very high level analyzing what is it like from the light level going all the way to the digital sensor, essentially, and what is going on between if you just captured it from digital to if you shot it on film.
00:19:53.609 --> 00:20:07.689
And obviously, Genesis and FilmBox do this a little bit differently, and so, but it's a very high-level approach to give you that film look, and I use that in like quotations, and they provide a very easy intuitive setup, essentially.
00:20:07.689 --> 00:20:12.089
You can get your halation, you can get your grain, and you get a significant number of stocks.
00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:16.809
And again, both Genesis and Filmbox approach this differently and how they go about that.
00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:27.210
And because of the amount of resource and research and dedication it took to both profile, all these different stocks, they're very expensive.
00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:31.369
And so those products I don't think we I don't have any problem with.
00:20:31.369 --> 00:20:33.049
I think they're very, very useful.
00:20:33.049 --> 00:20:34.970
They're used on a lot of Hollywood productions.
00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:36.730
I think they're both very great products.
00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:44.009
Oh, it's also worth saying that like those products, because of the high cost of them, they're not as accessible to everybody.
00:20:44.009 --> 00:20:45.849
And that's, I guess, to be accepted.
00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:53.049
If you were to bring these products down to a certain cost, you wouldn't be able to continue development on them because they're both made by small teams.
00:20:53.049 --> 00:20:59.210
Colin and his team are pretty small, and also the FilmBox team who I had on the podcast earlier is just three guys.
00:20:59.210 --> 00:21:09.929
So the requirements to develop these products are pretty high, and the teams, because it's not a huge facility, they need to price these appropriately.
00:21:09.929 --> 00:21:13.210
And so those products I think are very, very useful.
00:21:13.210 --> 00:21:22.409
They allow you to do something like instead of shooting on film, you can actually mix and match film and digital very, very accurately.
00:21:22.409 --> 00:21:23.929
Those are very useful.
00:21:23.929 --> 00:21:34.250
On the middle level, you have something like your and my products, where I'm profiling film, you're going out and shooting film, you're essentially profiling them as I'm I.
00:21:34.250 --> 00:21:41.129
It's not to what I'll call the same level in accuracy that we're getting with film box and Genesis.
00:21:41.129 --> 00:21:42.889
We're taking slightly different approaches.
00:21:42.889 --> 00:21:48.009
You and I are researching our own methods, but you are getting a pretty good result.
00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:59.689
We may not have as many options as we have with Film Box and Genesis, but what we're able to do because of that and because of the less resources that we have to put into that, we're able to offer it at a much lower price point.
00:21:59.689 --> 00:21:59.929
Yeah.
00:21:59.929 --> 00:22:06.889
And so for me, that I think uh, and that's a lot of people are comparing our products to Film Box and Genesis, and I don't think that's actually what we're trying to do.
00:22:06.889 --> 00:22:08.649
At least that's not what I'm trying to do.
00:22:08.649 --> 00:22:27.689
I'm trying to offer something that's more affordable with less options than some of the higher end products, while giving you access to real stocks, real healation, real grain, stuff like that, and continued support that allows us to continue to develop those products because I'm continuing to profile film, you're shooting more film.
00:22:27.689 --> 00:22:32.329
And for those of you that don't know, buying film and developing film is very expensive.
00:22:32.329 --> 00:22:33.929
Especially today.
00:22:34.250 --> 00:22:38.009
Yeah, and it's getting even more expensive like as we speak, kind of.
00:22:38.009 --> 00:22:38.889
It's crazy.
00:22:38.889 --> 00:22:54.490
I think it's a bit better, the situation in the US, but but here in Europe it's really expensive, and we also don't have like such high-end labs like Photocam over in the in the US or in LA, or I think you also have some some other really good labs.
00:22:54.490 --> 00:23:00.970
We just have I I think the best one that I worked with a lot of times is CineLab in in UK.
00:23:00.970 --> 00:23:05.369
I think it kinda matches in quotes what what Photocam does.
00:23:05.369 --> 00:23:14.250
But yeah, with the Brexit, it's also kinda tough to ship stuff out there from Austria and stuff like that, and it's also not as straightforward.
00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:16.809
Yeah, no, I I think you summed it up well.
00:23:16.809 --> 00:23:26.490
And I think we we have like three three, four really big plugins that came out, as at least that I'm aware of, like as an OFX plugin.
00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:38.409
And I think that's also worth pointing out that we are just doing DCTLs and all the bigger ones are are OFX because yeah, OFX has less limitations than than DCTLs.
00:23:38.409 --> 00:23:51.769
As you said, like the Filmbox upgrade, it's insane, and and I really um love what they did because um you you see that they really care about the community because they released it for free if you had a like the perpetual license.
00:23:51.769 --> 00:24:03.049
And it's crazy because I bought it I don't know four or five years ago, I can't remember exactly, and then I just get a huge amount of of new stocks and grain profiles and whatsoever for free.
00:24:03.049 --> 00:24:10.970
So you can really see that they care about like the community and don't necessarily only want to make money, you know.
00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:17.769
Of course, we all have to make money, me too, and but yeah, it's not like the number one goal with them, and that's really nice to see.
00:24:17.769 --> 00:24:22.409
And that's also like a tough position now with with Ari because we all know the struggle.
00:24:22.409 --> 00:24:36.970
And I was also thinking, should I just buy the plugin if I may never use it or may have like similar profiles on my own, because I profiled my own film and stuff like that, just to support Ari because they're struggling.
00:24:36.970 --> 00:24:40.970
And we are all here just because of Ari, more or less.
00:24:40.970 --> 00:24:56.569
Um, because it's insane what they innovated and what they did, because we all know their products, like the cameras, but yeah, also with the film recorder, with the film scanner, it's insane what they innovated, and it's it's yeah, really sad to see that they are struggling now.
00:24:56.889 --> 00:25:06.089
So Ari also released, they call it Ari Film Lab, and it's a license-based OFX plugin that, similar to what we were discussing, is a film emulation product.
00:25:06.089 --> 00:25:10.970
I just pulled it up right here, and it emulates film grain, color, halation, gateweave.
00:25:10.970 --> 00:25:14.009
It doesn't have as many stocks as some of the other ones.
00:25:14.009 --> 00:25:17.210
So I think I'm gonna say that it fits somewhere in the middle.
00:25:17.210 --> 00:25:21.369
I I wouldn't rate it as highly as say Genesis in FilmLab.
00:25:21.369 --> 00:25:26.889
So I'd say it's somewhere closer to what you and I have, but I still think it's an excellent, excellent product.
00:25:26.889 --> 00:25:29.210
And like you, I also had that same thought.
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:31.849
Like, should I should I buy it just to support Ari?
00:25:31.849 --> 00:25:33.929
Because obviously Ari is struggling a little bit.
00:25:33.929 --> 00:25:36.329
The different parts of the company have closed down.
00:25:36.329 --> 00:25:43.849
Yeah, and I think one of the things that I want to make sure we jump into is on the low level, we have film emulation power grades.
00:25:43.849 --> 00:25:47.369
And I think film emulation power grades are while still useful.
00:25:47.369 --> 00:25:50.649
I think Juan Malar's power grades are absolutely incredible.
00:25:50.649 --> 00:25:54.409
He just has done some incredible work, but there's no way to protect them.
00:25:54.409 --> 00:26:05.689
And so, because of that, we've seen this big wave of people essentially copying them and reselling them on Etsy and launching an Instagram ad and reselling them.
00:26:05.689 --> 00:26:15.369
And I mean, just like you, I've seen either open source DCTLs, my own DCTLs, your DCTLs, being resold because there's very little way for us to protect them.
00:26:15.369 --> 00:26:16.889
And it's difficult.
00:26:16.889 --> 00:26:18.009
There's no other way to say it.
00:26:18.009 --> 00:26:28.809
It's difficult to see that happening when the goal, for me at least, was to increase and provide a way for people to emulate real film in a way that I think is affordable and approachable.
00:26:28.809 --> 00:26:36.970
And it's clear that a lot of these, a lot of people are trying to essentially just make a little money off something without the work that goes in there.
00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:45.769
The way that I work at Pixel Tools, we approach something very specifically in the sense that like I like things to be like Legos, I want it to be compatible with everything.
00:26:45.769 --> 00:26:51.689
And something that you make or some a DCTL or a power grid that somebody else makes doesn't always fit within that.
00:26:51.689 --> 00:26:54.169
And so the things that I make are very specific.
00:26:54.169 --> 00:26:57.289
And obviously, other people aren't gonna have that care.
00:26:57.289 --> 00:27:04.889
It's just usually I just want it to look good, and as long as somebody else wants it also to look good, I'm gonna sell it like that.
00:27:04.889 --> 00:27:20.089
And for me, that's a little bit disingenuous because, as I'm sure you know, when you're trying to create a power grade for yourself, it's one thing, but when you're trying to create a power grade that works for the wide audience, it's a totally different ball game.
00:27:20.089 --> 00:27:33.210
You have to try and predict how they're gonna use it, how they're gonna misuse it, what faults they're gonna do, how to direct them inside the power grade, where do you use things first, how do you label it, how do you lay the power grade out?
00:27:33.210 --> 00:27:36.730
And so for me, it's really a different ball game.
00:27:36.730 --> 00:27:57.450
And so I don't have an answer for this, but I do find myself being disappointed, I think is the best word, that I see some of the low-hanging fruit, as I'll call it, of people using uh cheap Instagram or Facebook ads to try and resell products that are either open source or from another creator like yourself and mine.
00:27:57.450 --> 00:28:13.369
And so I think the the biggest thing that I'm walking away with is that that is not entirely like we could have predicted this in the fact that film emulation is one, it it's a highly sought-after look.
00:28:13.369 --> 00:28:22.089
It's highly sought after in that Kodak and Fuji spent decades of time making film look and feel good.
00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:26.889
It doesn't look like the way we see in our eye, it's it looks preferable.
00:28:26.889 --> 00:28:36.889
So when digital sensors came along and didn't essentially try to match the way that our eye sees, that wasn't going to be what people wanted.
00:28:36.889 --> 00:28:47.289
And so now that people want to make things look filmic and cinematic, it's really not that surprising that people are reaching for film emulation.
00:28:47.289 --> 00:28:54.730
And now that there are so many tools out there, it's not that surprising that everybody is trying to get a little piece of that pie.
00:28:54.970 --> 00:28:57.929
Yeah, no, and that's maybe also something that I need to add.
00:28:57.929 --> 00:29:16.809
Um, that especially like the first two levels, if we focus on that, like the OFX and and most of the DCTLs, and I don't want you to complain that there are that many out there because yeah, most of them are very well made and are really good, so I'm not complaining that it's bad and nobody should do it.
00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:41.849
And as you said, I also get it why people want that their footage look this way or this kind of way, because I'm in the same boat I started like I don't know, 2020 when I had more free time to dive into figuring out what Steve Yedlin is doing um with his display prep demo, and and it all started that way, so it it was the same for me, and so I can't complain or can't judge anyone doing this or want to buy these plugins.
00:29:41.849 --> 00:29:45.049
That's totally relatable and totally understandable.
00:29:45.049 --> 00:29:56.089
For me, I I think what's really stands out this year, maybe to add this, because I I talked with the people, and they're really lovely people um over at uh Hell Pictures.
00:29:56.089 --> 00:29:58.889
I hope I pronounced it correctly, that the French company.
00:29:58.889 --> 00:30:00.490
Yeah, I saw them recently.
00:30:01.210 --> 00:30:02.409
So another useful tool.
00:30:02.649 --> 00:30:09.210
Yeah, they also released like two plugins, one for like the color and contrast part and one for the texture part.
00:30:09.210 --> 00:30:16.490
And I had a talk with them like just a week ago or so, and they're really really great people, and I also love their plugin.
00:30:16.490 --> 00:30:22.970
Uh and what I love even more is kind of relatable to to how Filmbox is doing stuff.
00:30:22.970 --> 00:30:30.889
They really care about the community, they're very transparent and open what they did, how they built it under the hood, how they came up with it.
00:30:30.889 --> 00:30:33.849
And I think what what's really nice is what they said.
00:30:33.849 --> 00:30:51.769
They it's not quote unquote, so um, I I hope I'm not saying something wrong here, but kind of how I interpreted that it is they didn't want to release another film emulation plugin because we have so many out there, and it's hard to add something, you know, um that that's not out there.
00:30:51.769 --> 00:30:59.289
So they took this approach and and made everything with it's hard for me to say in English, parameterized.
00:30:59.289 --> 00:31:01.369
Um yeah, parameterized.
00:31:01.369 --> 00:31:04.809
Um, yeah, uh it's hard for me to pronounce.
00:31:04.809 --> 00:31:20.009
Um, to yeah, you you can get like a film emulation with their plugin, of course, because you can dial in the contrast curve that it looks like a Fuji or a Kodak filmprint emulation, you can tweak red, green, blues, whatever to feel that way, so you can get there.
00:31:20.009 --> 00:31:43.049
But the great thing is what I wanted to say is that they say we have the tools or they provided tools to move even further, because now digital cameras are probably don't start that discussion, but maybe are better for some jobs, you know, or they have the dynamic range, they don't have like eight stops dynamic range when they came out anymore, you know.
00:31:43.049 --> 00:31:48.250
So maybe we have to think how we should move further, yeah.
00:31:48.250 --> 00:31:51.369
Or maybe just take parts of film emulation, you know.
00:31:51.369 --> 00:31:56.569
Maybe I want the contrast curve, but maybe I want to my reds look different or whatsoever.
00:31:56.569 --> 00:32:39.749
And I think that's a really great point what they said and what they provided, and how they approached their plugin and and coded it up and stuff like that.
00:32:39.749 --> 00:32:58.549
They really I really like this and thought, yeah, that that's a great thing to keep in mind because I can like do a preset that looks kinda similar to a 2383, but then tweak the hell out of it, um, changing the contrast curve, changing how reds behave, for example, and and so on.
00:32:58.549 --> 00:33:04.069
And I think that's a really good point, what they said and what they added with their approach to the market.
00:33:04.469 --> 00:33:05.829
I think that's really interesting.
00:33:05.829 --> 00:33:07.909
And I I do want to just clear one thing up.
00:33:07.909 --> 00:33:20.069
It may sound potentially negative that that Nico and I are bagging on people making their own approach to film emulation, and that's absolutely not what we're trying to do.
00:33:20.069 --> 00:33:35.029
If you have your own approach and you think you can add something to any type of film emulation, whether it be color, whether it be texture, whether it be the grain or the halation, by all means, please continue to make your way of going about this.
00:33:35.029 --> 00:33:37.989
That's how the plugin that Nico just described was created.
00:33:37.989 --> 00:33:48.309
I think what we're more talking about is taking it somebody else's previously approach, tweaking it one or two percent, and then calling it your own, because that's really not your own.
00:33:48.309 --> 00:34:00.229
But the way that we are able to move the industry and film emulation forward and beyond is by people having new ideas and moving it forward.
00:34:00.229 --> 00:34:01.749
We all started from somewhere.
00:34:01.749 --> 00:34:05.669
I also learned a ton from Steve Yedlin and had some different ideas.
00:34:05.669 --> 00:34:10.230
I'm a huge Halatia nerd, and it all starts from somewhere.
00:34:10.230 --> 00:34:24.469
So if you are sitting here listening to this podcast saying, Should I create I had this really cool idea for a texture plugin, or I wanted to approach film emulation slightly differently, please continue to do your work on it.
00:34:24.469 --> 00:34:28.309
This is not to bag on you creating your new tools.
00:34:28.309 --> 00:34:31.590
And I highly encourage you to continue your work.
00:34:31.590 --> 00:34:39.190
I've had a couple filmmakers reach out to me with different texture, with different grain plugins, and there is always room for new approaches.
00:34:39.190 --> 00:34:55.110
But if you're gonna take somebody's previous work, whether it be open source, whether it be not open source, and barely tweak it and then try and call it your own, that's not necessarily gonna be helpful to the industry, to anything else besides to make a little bit of money.
00:34:55.110 --> 00:34:58.150
And I think that's what I think a lot of people are getting a little bit tired of.
00:34:58.150 --> 00:35:06.310
But we are able to move things forward by new ideas, new approaches, new concepts.
00:35:06.310 --> 00:35:13.430
And what I think you're describing is the way that this company is approaching it is what I like to call modern film emulation.
00:35:13.430 --> 00:35:32.310
We are able to take the concepts, the ideas, the philosophies that are from film emulation and move it forward and beyond the limitations of actual celluloid, which I truly love because we aren't as limited as we were with celluloid stock, and we don't have to stick with those.
00:35:32.310 --> 00:35:39.590
Obviously, there is some beauty to fully emulating the photochemical process, and I love projects that we can do that.
00:35:39.590 --> 00:36:08.390
I love working on projects that are shot on photochemical film, but I also love being able to go beyond that, like you said, especially with technologies like HDR and saying, okay, we are gonna emulate a negative, but we're not gonna do it through a print, or we're gonna do the negative and the print, but we're not gonna limit the dynamic range, or we're gonna use a totally different contrast curve, or we're gonna really extend the saturation beyond what it would go on film.
00:36:08.390 --> 00:36:12.230
These are really cool ideas that we can do now and it's worth experimenting with.
00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:23.110
And I love that this company is thinking outside the box in that way to allow people that may not be as technical to be creative, and that's what I love.
00:36:23.110 --> 00:36:36.470
I also love that they have two different tools, one for texture and one for color, because I don't think enough people are messing around with texture, and I think texture is one of the most creative areas that you can get things to look and feel differently.
00:36:36.470 --> 00:36:41.590
So I'm really excited to play around with that tool, and I saw it, but I haven't played around with it yet.
00:36:41.590 --> 00:36:45.590
So I'm excited to reach out to them and say hey and see if I can get my hands on it.
00:36:45.830 --> 00:36:47.750
I can also connect you guys if you want to.
00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:48.470
Definitely.
00:36:48.470 --> 00:37:22.070
You had had another great point here, and and I think maybe that's what's now when I heard it, maybe that's the thing that's even frustrating for me because of course I want that people explore this stuff because yeah, that's maybe I'm also part because of it that there are or guilty that there are so many plugins out there or TC tails or whatsoever, because yeah, I I just throw out my charts, and that's also the beauty of it, that everybody can buy them, and everybody ends up with different profiles, even though they're even based on the same charts, you know.
00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:33.030
Um, your product is looking different than my own profiles or from someone else because they are sending me over sometimes their stuff and say, Hey, how do you like it?
00:37:33.030 --> 00:37:39.750
I made it because of your charts, and so that's really beautiful to see, and that's great, and that should definitely continue.
00:37:39.750 --> 00:38:15.350
But what you said, like the creative side of things, and maybe that's the frustrating part for me, that I feel like some people may jump into DCTLs or OFX plugins or whatsoever, um, too quickly because they're maybe just starting out with color grading or just are beginner or intermediate colorists, and maybe they're not as creative anymore because they're looking for this kind of one-click solution that this plugin costs, I don't know, a lot of money and it should look beautiful right out of the box, and I shouldn't do anything anymore.
00:38:15.350 --> 00:38:20.710
And I also heard someone else saying you shouldn't do much in the grading stuff.
00:38:20.710 --> 00:38:32.950
Yeah, that's probably true when you're working with A-level DPs on super big budget Hollywood blockbusters when they're making showlots and they're having a lot of time and money for shooting.
00:38:32.950 --> 00:38:38.710
Of course, then everything will look perfect when it comes to you, and it's hard to not mess it up.
00:38:38.710 --> 00:38:55.590
And maybe some of these super high-level colorists are doing sometimes not much to the image because it's perfect out of the box, but I think it's not true for independent colorists working on I don't know, maybe super small commercials or stuff like that.
00:38:55.590 --> 00:39:13.350
And maybe that's the frustrating thing for me that I feel that a lot of people are looking for this one-click solutions, and they're not like sounds a bit harsh honoring the the craft anymore to try stuff out, to push lift gamma gain around and and figuring stuff out.
00:39:13.350 --> 00:39:22.790
And some of my best grades back in the days were because I didn't know all the technical stuff, and I had like happy accidents or stuff like that.
00:39:22.790 --> 00:39:33.430
That's some of my most beautiful grades came out of, and maybe that's the thing that I feel is a bit frustrating with all these plugins coming up that gets lost.
00:39:33.430 --> 00:39:34.470
Maybe I don't know.
00:39:34.470 --> 00:39:35.270
Maybe it's just me.
00:39:35.270 --> 00:39:37.590
Maybe I'm completely wrong with this assumption.
00:39:37.590 --> 00:39:37.990
I don't know.
00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:52.790
I certainly don't think you're wrong, but one of the things that gets frustrating for me is that it feels and I think this is probably pretty common, is people think that higher-end productions they shoot things perfect, and so they don't really have to grade.
00:39:52.790 --> 00:40:07.110
And so I've talked to a lot of high-end DPs as I try, excuse me, DPs and colorists that I try and get on the show, and they're very busy, so a lot of the times I don't come on the show, but I continue to talk to them, whether it's casually over Instagram or over Zoom and other stuff.
00:40:07.110 --> 00:40:14.230
And so I've been chatting with the colorists for Plurbus and Welcome to Dairy, which is one of my favorite shows right now.
00:40:14.230 --> 00:40:18.150
And two of the greatest looking shows on television right now.
00:40:18.150 --> 00:40:24.790
I just watched the latest episode of Welcome to Dairy last night, and so you think it might look perfect out of the can.
00:40:24.790 --> 00:40:28.070
And it's just a gorgeous looking show, especially Welcome to Dairy.
00:40:28.070 --> 00:40:35.190
Plurbus looks pretty like normal, but there's so much work that goes into that, and especially Welcome to Dairy.
00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:43.910
I was speaking to the secondary colorist Jesus Parego, and he was telling me just there are mats and mats and mats.
00:40:43.910 --> 00:40:47.190
He's like, There's like 20 or 30 mats on one of these shots.
00:40:47.190 --> 00:40:59.990
And so because it's shot so well, they're able to spend so much time doing the secondary work on the show to make it really feel the way that they want it to feel.
00:40:59.990 --> 00:41:09.910
So, yeah, maybe the balance doesn't need as much work as you and I put into it, but because they have this extra time, they can really finesse the image the way that they want to.
00:41:09.910 --> 00:41:15.590
And it really goes into making the image pop in the way that they want to.
00:41:15.590 --> 00:41:24.790
So it's not like they're not spending the time on this image, but just because it's shot so professionally, they're able to put the time where it really matters.
00:41:24.790 --> 00:41:27.670
Obviously, there's VFX, and that's what some of the maths are for.
00:41:27.670 --> 00:41:35.910
But this other stuff allows them to do things like Welcome to Dairy goes into a bunch of different times, and each of these times has different looks for it.
00:41:35.910 --> 00:41:37.670
They go into black and white.
00:41:37.670 --> 00:41:40.550
There is just some absolutely incredible looks.
00:41:40.550 --> 00:41:49.270
And I'm positive that they would have not been able to get the finesse, especially for a television show, that they were able to do if it was not shot well.
00:41:49.270 --> 00:41:54.470
So it's not like they're not able and it just pops out of the can looking like that.
00:41:54.470 --> 00:42:02.230
But because it's shot professionally, they're able to finesse in a way that you and I just don't have the time to do because you and I are working on the main balance.
00:42:02.230 --> 00:42:04.310
And I think a lot of people forget that.
00:42:04.310 --> 00:42:13.750
Where the time on these professional productions is still put in there, but because they don't have to focus on the basic part, they can go put it elsewhere.
00:42:13.990 --> 00:42:15.030
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:42:15.030 --> 00:42:16.870
Um sorry if it came out wrong.
00:42:16.870 --> 00:42:33.430
I I just remembered on on top of my head, uh I think it's from um from Walter Volbato, um, where he said kinda not not really one-to-one, but kinda that he went too far with the grade and the DPs or the director said, Hey, thanks for reshooting my movie.
00:42:34.070 --> 00:42:37.430
Oh yeah, I mean Walter's uh Walter's a mentor of mine.
00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:38.870
And sometimes that is fine.
00:42:38.870 --> 00:42:42.470
So yeah, I'm totally with you.
00:42:42.470 --> 00:42:52.390
Also just lately because I um watched Stranger Things, uh, and that's also I I can't even imagine how to work on such a show.
00:42:52.390 --> 00:42:59.350
It must be so hard with I can't even imagine how many layers of VFX and and mats and whatsoever they have in there.
00:42:59.350 --> 00:43:02.710
I think it must be insane and and it's so well made.
00:43:02.710 --> 00:43:11.590
And also to keep all of this in flow and continues, uh I think it must be crazy hard to pull off here.
00:43:11.590 --> 00:43:17.190
So I'm not saying it's easier when you're a level colorist, I think your the work is different.
00:43:17.190 --> 00:43:18.790
It's different.
00:43:18.790 --> 00:43:30.630
You have different problems, you have different challenges, and maybe the shooting part isn't one, but maybe all the studios and the executives and and everybody has an opinion or kind of that way.
00:43:30.630 --> 00:43:33.270
Maybe that's a big challenge for them then, or stuff like that.
00:43:33.270 --> 00:43:34.950
Your focus shifts, exactly.
00:43:34.950 --> 00:43:35.750
Yeah, definitely.
00:43:35.990 --> 00:43:40.870
You don't have less to make it full circle.
00:43:40.870 --> 00:43:43.190
Yeah, you're right.
00:43:43.190 --> 00:43:44.870
Oh my god, exactly.
00:43:44.870 --> 00:43:54.390
So it's I agree with you totally, and not every project is gonna require the maths and VFX style that Stranger Things and Welcome to Dairy is gonna require.
00:43:54.390 --> 00:44:44.690
Some may require, like Walter said, you just need to balance and then it's done.
00:44:44.690 --> 00:44:47.970
There's certainly projects that are just gonna go out like that.
00:44:47.970 --> 00:44:59.730
But I do feel that because people have watched whether it's interviews or behind the scenes that have misrepresented color grading in a way that you know it's just easier up at the top.
00:44:59.730 --> 00:45:01.650
And I don't really think that's necessarily true.
00:45:01.650 --> 00:45:05.090
I think the problems are different, and I think you put it correctly.
00:45:05.329 --> 00:45:06.530
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:21.730
And hopefully also your work with the CSI helps to get more focus because I think it's just like a few months back that we actually got the IMDB credit for digital intermediate colorists, or I think it's called that way, right?
00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:22.050
Yeah.
00:45:22.050 --> 00:45:25.090
So yeah, we shifted for putting in all the work.
00:45:25.410 --> 00:45:44.369
I I was just a small part of a large team, but yeah, for those of you that are unaware on IMDb, a large team in collaboration with the CSI and IMDB, we have successfully moved all colorist credits out of editorial and into the color department, and that is a huge, huge step forward for colorists, whether you're part of the CSI or not.
00:45:44.369 --> 00:45:48.450
So that is a really a huge step forward in getting colorists recognized correctly.
00:45:48.690 --> 00:45:49.809
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:45:49.809 --> 00:45:51.090
And and that's amazing.
00:45:51.090 --> 00:45:51.730
And yeah.
00:45:51.730 --> 00:46:03.250
I think that's maybe also the thing where you have to kind of differentiate to go a bit back to the plugins because maybe that's also a thing that everybody wants to sell.
00:46:03.250 --> 00:46:05.890
A lot of people want to sell you this kind of idea.
00:46:05.890 --> 00:46:29.170
If you use my plugin, my lot whatsoever, then you will get this A-level looks, but you're not there because of a plugin, because as you just mentioned, there are sometimes super fancy VFX work and super uh or a lot of times doing a lot of maths and stuff like that, and you can't automatically do that just because you have a plugin for your ODD or whatsoever.
00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:40.849
And the same is true if it's not shot well or as intended for the look, or maybe you didn't have a show lot for shooting or stuff like that, then that's another part of the equation.
00:46:40.849 --> 00:46:48.130
And I'm not even speaking about editorial or onset work and art direction whatsoever and lens choices and so on.
00:46:48.130 --> 00:46:59.329
So I think that's also something that maybe is frustrating with all the Instagram ads and stuff like that popping up that everybody wants to sell you a quotes Hollywood look.
00:46:59.329 --> 00:47:02.690
Yeah, the Hollywood look is not just a colorist.
00:47:02.690 --> 00:47:03.250
Yeah.
00:47:03.250 --> 00:47:03.570
Yeah.
00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:15.890
I think, and I think a good way to sort of sum up this conversation as a whole is that the Hollywood look is a combination of an amalgam of many different things.
00:47:15.890 --> 00:47:49.410
It starts on set with wardrobe, it's then captured by a great DP who chooses his lenses and his cameras precisely, it is lit by a great gaffer, it is acted well, it is then massaged by a great colorist who chooses his tools correctly, and a film emulation plugin may be part of those tools, just like a pen, just like a mouse in a control panel in a stream deck and a great reference monitor, but it is simply one of those many tools.
00:47:49.410 --> 00:47:53.890
It is not the one button tool of that Hollywood look.
00:47:53.890 --> 00:48:05.410
And so it's disingenuous to say that Filmbox is the Hollywood look, or Ari or my product or your product is the Hollywood look.
00:48:05.410 --> 00:48:19.329
It is one tiny piece, and so obviously, it may look nice on an ad for it to say this product helped create the Hollywood look, but I think the key part is helped, and it is a very small part of that.
00:48:19.329 --> 00:48:23.890
Without the rest of that sandwich, it's just the lettuce on the bread, man.
00:48:23.890 --> 00:48:31.650
If you don't have the turkey and the bread and the sauce and it's all grilled correctly, it's just soggy.
00:48:32.610 --> 00:48:35.890
Yeah, no, uh, I think that's that's what I wanted to say.
00:48:35.890 --> 00:48:38.930
Yeah, you have summed it up very well, definitely.
00:48:38.930 --> 00:48:51.170
Maybe let's see how how the journey goes if we see even more plugins popping up in in 2026, or maybe we we shift gears and maybe everybody wants to have a different look.
00:48:51.170 --> 00:48:52.050
Let's see.
00:48:52.530 --> 00:48:55.410
Yeah, I would love I'll ask you an interesting question.
00:48:55.410 --> 00:49:00.210
I would love to see more shows embracing a digital style look.
00:49:00.210 --> 00:49:06.690
Uh, I think digital style looks are bold and different and also beautiful.
00:49:06.690 --> 00:49:11.329
I think Michael Mann was one of the first to really embrace digital style looks.
00:49:11.329 --> 00:49:17.490
I think David Fincher is really good at embracing non-filmic digital style looks.
00:49:17.490 --> 00:49:21.809
Michael Mann did it in his his film with Tom Cruise as a taxi driver.
00:49:21.809 --> 00:49:28.769
I'm blanking on it right now, Lateral, where they shot really all at night and they didn't try and embrace film at all.
00:49:28.769 --> 00:49:41.650
They really leaned into the way that the camera, blanking on the camera type, but I would love to see the way that people leaning into some of the digital style looks and create some really interesting looking film.
00:49:41.650 --> 00:49:46.690
I'm curious what what you might be interested in seeing in the coming years with with look design.
00:49:46.930 --> 00:50:02.289
The funny thing is because I just looked up a film reference some days ago and I totally fell down a rabbit hole because I think we're we're kinda maybe even there already a bit because we're not emulating everything.
00:50:02.289 --> 00:50:13.490
And if you see those series or films from the 90s, I thought in my memory they look way better than they actually look when I'm looking up stills.
00:50:13.490 --> 00:50:23.650
So yeah, I I think we are already kinda there a tiny bit because we have this memory of how film looks, but we we make it look different already, I think.
00:50:23.650 --> 00:50:27.090
And so so that's definitely a good thing, don't get me wrong.
00:50:27.090 --> 00:50:39.010
And I think also with if you capture something on film, it also looks totally different now because we're not going through Telecini anymore or just doing contact prints right out of T-Nec or stuff like that.
00:50:39.010 --> 00:50:41.170
Um so that's a whole topic for another day.
00:50:41.170 --> 00:50:42.930
But I I think we're already there.
00:50:42.930 --> 00:50:49.730
Also, as you said, that you don't have to finish with a film print emulation or with a film print if you don't want to.
00:50:49.730 --> 00:50:52.930
You can have a scanned neck and do whatever you want with it.
00:50:52.930 --> 00:50:54.930
And that that's really amazing.
00:50:54.930 --> 00:50:59.490
And yeah, as you said with the digital looks, maybe that's also a thing.
00:50:59.490 --> 00:51:07.809
What I try to do at the moment myself, and what would be really great to see if in quotes kind of think outside of the box.
00:51:07.809 --> 00:51:19.809
I think a really funny thing is with or let's put it different, I I think to to make looks that are not kind of look the same because they're based on some sort of 2383 emulation.
00:51:19.809 --> 00:51:28.369
I've been there myself, I used it a lot and I did a lot of looks that look the same way, and it's still hard for me to not do it because I like how it looks, you know.
00:51:28.369 --> 00:52:01.410
But that the funny thing is with um Wes Anderson movie that came out, there was a really funny comment on Facebook on one of the Asteroid City, yeah, where uh I I won't name names, but a really big colorist here in Europe commented that said if a random guy with no name would boast such a still in the group, everybody would say yeah, I I I don't even say what they would say, and that it looks totally garbage and shit, uh, and he uses some cheap ass lot and whatsoever.
00:52:01.410 --> 00:52:03.250
So he would get totally destroyed.
00:52:03.250 --> 00:52:07.250
But if Wes Anderson is doing it, then it looks nice and artistic.
00:52:07.250 --> 00:52:20.930
But I don't and I thought about this and I would agree actually to him, but at the same way I kept looking at the images and pulled some more stills from film graph from the film.
00:52:20.930 --> 00:52:26.690
Then I was like, Yeah, but it kinda is refreshing to see a totally different approach.
00:52:26.690 --> 00:52:35.010
And if you analyze it, you see that it's kinda hard to even get to that look because I tried it myself to some footage.
00:52:35.010 --> 00:52:38.369
Of course, now we're there again with art direction, all this stuff.
00:52:38.369 --> 00:52:42.050
Of course, it wasn't the same way and stuff like that.
00:52:42.050 --> 00:52:53.730
But where I knew it's looking kind of similar, and it's actually hard to get this look, and I think it's actually refreshing to see something completely different that maybe even challenges you at first sight.
00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:55.329
You say, What the fuck is this?
00:52:55.329 --> 00:53:10.930
And then it's like, Oh, yeah, but it's nice that some we are actually doing art here, and it's great that people are creative and and thinking outside of the box and doing something completely different, and I think that's super nice, and I would love to see more of that.
00:53:10.930 --> 00:53:22.610
Um, that not kind of everybody equotes doing the same thing and just applying one of the hundred different versions of of 2383 emulation out there and and grading underneath it.
00:53:22.610 --> 00:53:26.369
So that's definitely nice, and it was challenging.
00:53:26.450 --> 00:53:30.289
It's nice to see people have an opinion, whether you like it or you hate it.
00:53:30.289 --> 00:53:33.010
It's nice to see that there's a difference of opinion.
00:53:33.010 --> 00:53:51.650
One of the things you you you gave me an idea, and it's like it's already been a couple years since this film came out, but uh uh Yvonne Lucas graded Barbie, and I know this is a fun movie to bring up, but I loved the look of Barbie, and more than the look of Barbie, I loved the mechanics behind it.
00:53:51.650 --> 00:54:12.849
And for those of you that are not aware, the mechanics behind it is they used a technicolor uh style emulation, but they biased it towards pink as opposed, and that to me is just such a smart and cool way of doing it, so that the pink would be basically the the stronger color, and I just love that.
00:54:12.849 --> 00:54:27.170
Essentially, they they used a film style emulation, but they tweaked it specifically for the show, and it doesn't look like it's pasted on top, it really comes out well while still looking normal-ish.
00:54:27.170 --> 00:54:49.730
And that to me is the exact type of film emulation that I would like more people to embrace is one that really takes the film, its narrative, its its visual appeal into um in like into in mind, essentially, is they really clearly took what they want this film to look like.
00:54:49.730 --> 00:55:03.490
They decided to embrace how are we gonna do exactly what we want this film to feel and look like, and then they went through and said, Okay, what in the history of film can we do to make this look as best as possible?
00:55:03.490 --> 00:55:05.970
And they landed on a modified technicolor.
00:55:05.970 --> 00:55:07.890
And that was just so fascinating to me.
00:55:08.130 --> 00:55:10.050
Yeah, no, um, that's totally amazing.
00:55:10.050 --> 00:55:21.970
There's also a really article from Rodrigo Preto, I hope I pronounce it correctly, the DB of the show, where he talked about the challenges with dialing in the different colours and stuff like that.
00:55:21.970 --> 00:55:30.849
So it's it's really insane if you read this and then know how hard it was to get all the colours right, shoot this kind of movie.
00:55:30.849 --> 00:55:41.890
And what's even more impressive for me is that I think it was the same year or kinda close together, he shot the flowers of the killer moon.
00:55:41.890 --> 00:55:46.690
I think it's I hope the name is correct, from from the Scorsese movie.
00:55:46.690 --> 00:56:07.010
And this again looks totally different, and it's the same DP, and I think also the same colorist, and that's also really impressive to see how they did two movies that look completely different, and they had on both movies some crafted look that's insanely well made.
00:56:07.010 --> 00:56:13.010
Yeah, so that's also a really great thing that you just um said and come up with.
00:56:13.010 --> 00:56:14.369
Yeah, totally with you.
00:56:14.610 --> 00:56:23.570
So that was a really fun discussion on film emulation, on fatherhood in film, and just really catching up with you, Nico.
00:56:23.570 --> 00:56:25.650
I want to thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:27.090
We really appreciate it.
00:56:27.090 --> 00:56:30.289
And honestly, thank you so much for sponsoring the show.
00:56:30.289 --> 00:56:34.289
It really is great to have you as a sponsor for the show, and we greatly appreciate it.
00:56:34.530 --> 00:56:35.490
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
00:56:35.490 --> 00:56:40.849
It's such a great resource for everyone, and I try to help as good as I can.
00:56:40.849 --> 00:56:42.849
And thanks for having me again.
00:56:42.849 --> 00:56:56.610
Um, I hope people are interested in our thoughts and what we have to say about this situation with all the plugins, and yeah, thanks to you two for having a great conversation and catching up again.
00:56:56.610 --> 00:56:57.730
It was really amazing.
00:56:58.050 --> 00:56:59.329
It's truly my pleasure.
00:56:59.329 --> 00:57:04.050
And for this episode of Color and Coffee, I'm Jason Bowdach, and thank you guys for joining us.
00:57:04.050 --> 00:57:06.289
Happy grading! And that's a wrap.
00:57:06.289 --> 00:57:10.849
Be sure to follow us on Instagram, YouTube, and your podcast app of choice.
00:57:10.849 --> 00:57:16.849
Search for at Color Coffee or at Color Coffee Podcast and join the conversation.
00:57:16.849 --> 00:57:21.010
If you're using Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please leave a review.
00:57:21.010 --> 00:57:27.730
Huge thanks to FSI, Demystify Color, and Pixel Tools for sponsoring the show.
00:57:27.730 --> 00:57:30.210
Until the next episode.
